Two friends – the chronically unemployed, aimless Liv and cemetery groundskeeper Alex – find themselves in an in-between, undefined space when they start sleeping together. But when they fall in love, they swap bodies, and soon find out more than they should about each other. Their budding relationship in chaos, Alex attempts to sabotage things with the other guy he finds out Liv is seeing, only to find that he’s lovely, and begins to question his own sexuality. Liv, meanwhile, horrified at the idea of being Alex and having to work, visits her wealthy mum and ends up realising her own independence. But just as things seem to be working out, external forces threaten Liv and Alex’s budding relationship in macabre ways they cannot expect.
Leading up to it’s Australian premiere at the Gold Coast Film Festival on May 7, Nick L’Barrow spoke with Carnal Vessels‘ writer/director Angus Kirby, and cast members Arnijka Larcombe-Weate, Daniel Simpson, and Dylan Stumer about bringing this Aussie-born indie flick to life.
Nick: Angus, I’m curious to know what was it about Carnal Vessels that made it the right project for you to be your debut feature film?
Angus Kirby: Yeah, I’d already written a couple of things that would have taken quite a number of resources to make. And this one was the first one that I thought I could just go out and do. But it was also the story that most excited me about doing. I thought it was something that I’d actually really like to see. It felt like the right thing to do so clearly in my head. That was the impetus.
Nick: And for Daniel and Arnijka, I can only imagine how interesting this process would have been for you both, because you’re not just playing your own characters, but each other’s characters too! What was the collaboration like between the two of you to find the nuances of the other’s character for your performance?
Daniel Simpson: I mean, when I first started, I probably made the error of thinking more about Alex, because for the majority of the film, that’s not who I am. But, I was lucky because Arni had done a bunch of stuff as Alex already, and Angus was like, “This is perfect. Watch what she is doing as Alex and build it out from there.” So, I was really able to extrapolate Alex out of that, and it was like a nice little character study more so than it was having to come up with the character as I went. I just got to build off a lot of what Arnijka was doing.
Arnijka Larcombe-Weate: Basically, Dan is saying I carried the film, right? [laughs]
Daniel Simpson: [laughs] The theme of today’s chat will be that Arnijka did most of the work, and I just came in and said, “Wow, this is all really great!”
Arnijka Larcombe-Weate: I think the first thing that came into my mind when I was reading the script was, “What is it actually like to be a guy?” And I’ve known Dan for—we’ve worked together before, so I feel I know his characteristics to a certain point. But the process for me was more about feeling what it was like to be a guy.
It’s an interesting question because I feel like the answer is very open ended in terms of jumping into any character. But specifically for this one, I wanted to really find out how men move, how they present themselves, how they speak to people. There’s a lot of stereotypes that you could dive in to, but I was lucky enough to know Dan, so it made the specific transition between Liv and Alex a little bit easier.
Nick: Dylan, I don’t want to reveal too much, but was there a specific point in the script that really made you excited to take on this role and film?
Dylan Stumer: I never wanted to look at James as the bad guy, you know? I actually really looked at him like the classic “boy next door”. He’s like a picture perfect guy that the audience really wants him to get with the love interest.
But he is also… I don’t know how to say it to give too much away, but he really is also bringing the audience along for this ride. There’s a sense of discovery that he goes through that I feel like the audience is also going to go through.
Nick: I really love a lot of the dialogue and conversations in this film, because even though it’s a heightened concept, the dialogue feels so grounded and real. How important is that element for you all as performers and as the filmmaker?
Angus Kirby: It was actually something that I really racked my brain over. I wanted to have these two elements next to each other, but it wasn’t really until we were making it that I felt it was becoming more cohesive. And by the end of it, hopefully it all wrapped together nicely. I did really want it to have this grounded reality.
We did a lot of improv in a lot of those major dialogue scenes actually. And when you have great actors who can do that stuff and be really sharp, it works so well. The scene before they swap bodies was half written and half improvised, and while we were filming it, I was like, “If this scene works, then the whole movie works.”
Dylan Stumer: There was actually a scene we were going to film one morning where Angus was like, “Scrap it! Let’s rewrite it!” And we did! We rewrote this entire scene. Angus’ ability to, you know, have this free to play environment is great. He’s so open to the idea of changing things up if it makes a character standout. It was really fascinating to see how his brain works like that.
Daniel Simpson: I’m a big fan of dialogue. Like, when I think about my favourite movies, it’s usually the dialogue that really draws me in. It was so nice to have Angus on set because he preps so much stuff, but he’s also willing to throw it all the way if something is not vibing. To have that sort of freedom, and the willingness to do that, which would be really hard especially if you’ve written all of this stuff, is incredible.
Arnijka Larcombe-Weate: Improv is always a funny one. But, the beauty of improvisation in a scene like the argument scene is that you’re referencing from stuff in your own life. As actors, we’re trying to replicate connections. We’re trying to replicate moments that are real. So, to be given the opportunity to improvise with someone you feel comfortable with, in many ways, it makes it way more beautiful because Dan and I are humans who do have a connection. It makes those moments feel so much more lived in and real.
Nick: I love the visual aesthetic of this film, Angus. The scene in particular that stuck out to me is when Liv throws her red jacket on to the lamp and the entire room turns into the seductive red. I’m curious to know how much of a visual writer you are. Was a lot of the visual style baked into the script itself?
Angus Kirby: Yeah, it’s either on the page or I’m already thinking about it. But for like two weeks I was figuring out how I was going to make that specific shot work! Because it’s kind of there to take us from one thing to another, you know? From this realistic place to a “dream space”. And for ages we kept actually trying to just throw a red shirt over the lamp, and it turned out to be the most difficult thing to pull off. Then one of the crew had this red fabric, so Arnijka threw her red shirt onto the lamp, and then there was another light getting turned on while the lamp got turned off, and it lit up the whole room red! It was really tricky, but I’m glad it worked!
Nick: One thing I love about films like this, is that even though it’s this crazy ride, it’s also about experiencing different perspectives and walks of life, and it’s done so in this really intimate way. I think that’s a testament to the power of movies, that we can experience different stories and perspectives. Does that ever cross your mind when you’re making a film like this?
Arnijka Larcombe-Weate: I think one of the most beautiful things actors can have is empathy. There was a quote from Anthony Hopkins that I love which is, “A good actor will never judge a character. They will understand them.” It doesn’t matter if the character you’re playing is bad, at one point we were all innocent and naïve, and it’s about finding those points where something happened to cause that shift. I think it’s a really unique way to approach any characters.
Dylan Stumer: I think once you see someone else’s viewpoint, or the struggles they go through every day, it does take you back for a second and make you appreciate your own life. Every lived moment and experience is something you can draw back on.
Daniel Simpson: Sometimes it’s not even super profound things, but even just the everyday moments that you get to meet people. And film is a great opportunity for us to express that. I’ve definitely had that experience watching films before.
Nick: There is a scene in the film that is so integral to the character’s journeys, and that is when Liv and Alex separately explore their “new” bodies. There is such a vulnerability for both the characters, and I would assume both Arnijka and Dan in that moment. I’m curious to know what the conversations around that scene were between you all.
Daniel Simpson: It probably came up in the first conversation I had with Angus about what I was willing to do on screen, basically. And having that chat early on was great because it kind of maintained a level of conversation that was had about everything throughout the whole process, even into the edit.
And the conversation was really about balance between the two characters and then matching that to what Arnijka and I were comfortable with. That was even things that were being discussed particularly during the edit.
Arnijka Larcombe-Weate: It was the same thing for me. I spoke pretty openly with Angus about the scene on the page, and how we make it feel like it was both a female and male experience. I feel like in a lot of cinema, women’s bodies are the bodies that people see more of. And when it’s men, it’s usually just the penis, not their arse or chest. And from an artistic point of view, both women’s and men’s bodies are really beautiful. I mean, they are any way, but you get what I mean!
I’m comfortable taking my clothes off. However, in the context of the film, it was so great having those conversations between myself, Angus and Dan, and the film crew as well, about how can we make this scene an experience for both the characters. And also not just something for the male eye, but the context in which we present Liv’s body.
Angus Kirby: That was a scene that I feel like I’d never seen done in that way in film before. I thought it would be a fun thing to do, but it was also a little dangerous, which appealed to me. There was a little risk in that. And in the script, it’s just two lines about how they explore their own bodies.
But I knew I had to bring it to them both as early as possible and have really frank conversations about what everyone was comfortable with doing. I think everyone was very trusting, and I gave them final cut on the sequence. I made sure they had approved everything before it got locked.
Nick: In both tone and, I guess, a literal sense, Plan 9 From Outer Space is heavily featured in this film. For Angus, how much does that movie mean to you?
Angus Kirby: I remember I was a little kid, and my friend’s dad was talking about it as like the worst movie ever made. But I saw it and fell in love with it! I love Ed Wood’s films and adore him as a filmmaker. Just the guts it took for him to make his own films.
And obviously I was looking for a movie to have playing on the TV during the final sequence, and there were a few ideas thrown around, but when it landed on Plan 9, it made me laugh so much because it just felt so right. I feel like that movie really spoke to us when we were making this film.
Nick: Did anyone else get to appreciate the insanity of that film?
Dylan Stumer: [laughs] That one scene from the film played over and over on that TV. I think by the end of it we were just saying all of the lines. That’s the only part of the movie I remember!
Thank you so much to Angus, Daniel, Arnijka, and Dylan for their time, and to Radioactive Pictures and PJ Marketing and Media for organising the interview. Carnal Vessels is premiering at the Gold Coast Film Festival on Wednesday May 7. You can find information and tickets here!
